A very politely worded question relating to a topic that has come up before and one I’ve touched on but not really looked at in great depth – the old nutshell of the 9/9/6 policie
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Wherver you are, welcome to another edition of my take on China and I will get to what 9/9/6 means if you haven’t heard of it in a moment. I was asked by Cecilia about working hours in China:
Mr Jerry, she said: I'm gonna use this comment section to ask you a question. I bumped recently on a short where a Chinese man living in my country is claiming in China the most typical working hour is 9-9. I thought this was what Jack Ma was known for advocating and on the other hand I learned many shops are open till late in China. I'm wondering how things really are regarding this matter. Did you cover this kind of topic already or will you do in the future?
What a great question and yes indeed Jack Ma did support this I've covered it in some videos but not made a video specifically about it so here goes.
The very short and simple answer is: There is a problem in some corporations with industrial relations abuses but it's no longer legal - China legislated a year or so ago to ensure that any bosses who encourage or insist on longer than legal working hours can be prosecuted - however, the law doesn't change the culture, culture will eventually change the law here, that's the way it works in China but that’s not really a full answer, there’s a lot more to it than that.
First of all, let’s get one elephant out of the room - there are no sweatshops, no massive and no systemic abuses in China that are lawful, they are all illegal if they happen. But that's not to say some unscrupulous business leaders won't do it, China is no different to anywhere else but, where they happen, they can be dealt with through legal mechanisms.
Having said that, there is something called Power Distance Index, which is a dimension of culture which was defined by a Dutch psychologist called Geert Hofstede and this means that Chinese people have a very different view of their hierarchy than Western people - if the boss decides to stay in the office until 9pm, very few employees will go home before the boss. Now, the boss might come out of his office and say, what are all you guys still doing here, and they would reply with a friendly smile they were just finishing a few things off but they wouldn't go home until the boss has gone - this is where culture takes over from the law. The boss is quite entitled to work whatever hours he or she wants to work and the people are quite entitled to go home at clock off time, but they won't because of the Power Distance Index - you can google that for more or just go to the link I provided. The Orange bar is China, the grey is USA
.The second one is corporations such as Tencent, Alibaba and Huawei where they have had this culture of something called 9/9/6, that means working 9am to 9pm 6 days a week. This is now illegal. However, I'm willing to bet if I walk into Huawei at 8pm tonight, there will be plenty of people still at their desks. There are two aspects to this that we need to understand which are different in China to the West. One is that in a Chinese corporation, many people don't arrive at work until quite late, I can show you shops and offices where there is no one there until it's almost time for lunch, many shops don't open before lunch as the culture is one where people don't do much in the early morning.
Large corporations though, will have a clock on time and people will be required to be at their desks by 9 or 10am. Then something all Chinese companies have is long lunch breaks, like a siesta time. We used to see BBC reports about people so exhausted that they would sleep on the floor of a factory and it was shocking but it was gross misinformation. Every workplace I have ever set foot into in China and I was a training manager in a factory, a business consultant, a teaching trainer, a teacher in high schools and universities and every single one of them has a 2-3 hour lunch break - so if you start work at 10 am, you have a nap after lunch until 2:30pm, what time would you normally finish? Of course, it's going to be after 7pm perhaps even later.
The third aspect is a little more localised to corporations such as the mega corporations, Huawei is by no means the only one but very much a leading example where it's not a listed company, it's a cooperative - the company has over 120,000 owners and each of them gets a dividend at the end of the year. The Owner of Huawei has created thousands of millionaires in one city alone through his ownership scheme and what this means is that people will work very hard to get into the scheme, then once in it will work very hard for 10 years until they are at the point where they have confirmed ownership of their allotted shares and then they will sell the shares back to the company and retire at the age of about 40 - these people work long, hard hours and suffer enormous stresses because they know that there is an early retirement and financial security at the end of it. Again, there is a Dimension of Culture that explains this and it's another of Hofstede’s Dimensions of Culture called Long Term Orientation. It means people will work hard now, for a better future, China is very high on this index too. And, if we’re honest, I’m sure we’d find plenty of corporations in the West doing the same thing – how does one make partner in a legal firm without massive billing hours for example?
On the topic of late shop closing, as I’ve pointed out, going shopping in most streets is a waste of time before lunchtime, the department stores, the supermarkets and some shopping centre will be open but shops along the street will not. One of the reasons why street food and BBQs are so popular is that many people go for a beer and food after work, including people who work in shops and offices until quite late – most of the outdoor eating places start to get busy about 10 or 11pm because that’s when the customers start coming to them. The owners and workers in those places won’t go home until 2 or 3 in the morning and their customers will go home after 1am – the entire day starts later for a lot of people. I saw this too when I worked shifts in the UK many years ago – we would got to a bar at 7am, 9- workers thought this was strange but a beer after work was quite normal for them at 7pm – we just lived in different timezones in the same country.
And, if I can finish on one final point, it’s that China is on a different time zone to most of its customers and suppliers. We’re 6-8 hours later than most of Europe, and 12-15 hours later than the USA. Many of the offices we see working late are simply adjusting their working hours to suit their clients and respond faster. If it’s 10am in London, it’s 6pm in China and the sellers are talking to the buyers – this is very common too.
At the end of the day, there are still some people doing the wrong thing, there are still people who complain about long hours and late finishing times but there are many people who are working either flexible hours to meet client’s or suppliers needs and there are laws to protect people from being forced to do it but you can't change culture by writing a law and you can't change people's voluntary habits through legislation.
China is different to the west, people outside of China who don't understand this will complain and suggest that China is wrong to do this but the bottom line is that most of the people who do it in China do it for a reason and probably wouldn't change it even though they could.
It is also very common for people to have very long lunchbreaks in the PRC.
I've heard and seen ones so long that they go and take naps or even go to the gym.
That is completely unheard of in the west.
Heck, it's legally required for 1 hour breaks in the NZ, but in heaps of professions, its actually not feasible to to lack of staff or more likely, it's just poorly enforced.
That said, I personally don't give a f if I'm compensated, which I am.
Thanks for your insights into culture and working environment. I understand Japan has very similar hours, with office workers starting late and leaving around midnight. At least that’s what I have been told. Perhaps others who know better about Japan, Korea and Taiwan can weigh in.